Translucent Virgin Vinyl pressings and promos

I've been noticing that a LOT of the early '80's promos I have are on translucent vinyl - hold it up to a strong light and you can see that the vinyl is actually colored. Most often it's a very light brown. Right now I'm looking at a Polygram/Riva promo of a John Mellencamp 12" (promo only) which is light brown when inspected with strong light.

I've read in many other places that this indicated virgin vinyl pressings. I don't believe the labels made a lot of noise about this, but perhaps I missed it back in the day.

I've found many of my pressings from Windham Hill, A&M, and Polygram (Mercury, Riva, etc.) feature this vinyl. The Mercury pressings all seem to be promos. The A&M and Windham Hill are both promo and stock issues - see the Police Synchronicity issue for a good example.

I've begun adding this notation to the description of items I add to the database, and have modified a few promo releases already in the database to add this to the release notes. Am I going to run into resistance or problems as a result?

It would seem this might warrant adding another FORMAT choice - perhaps just a simple "audiophile edition" or more descriptive would be "translucent virgin vinyl".

Anybody have any thoughts or advise/guidance for me on this subject?

It;s black.standard vinyl. It;s been discussed before.

Why do you say "it's black standard vinyl" when it's not? Was that the consensus - that if you say it's standard vinyl that changes translucent virgin vinyl into "black standard vinyl"? This is the kind of that drives me nuts on here.

I'm fairly certain if I search hard enough I can find some record company press talking about it, perhaps I should start searching for that?

If someone can point me to the previous discussion that would be great. I've done a search and all it brings up are ALL THE LISTINGS IN THE DATABASE THAT NOTE "TRANSLUCENT VIRGIN VINYL"

mightyvinyl
I've found many of my pressings from Windham Hill, A&M, and Polygram (Mercury, Riva, etc.) feature this vinyl.

fascinating, i often find 12"s on small independent dance labels pressed on such vinyl, can't recall an instance of a major label doing such. at least not on a release that wasn't a dance oriented release (ie; never seen it on a rock release, but then dance genre releases outweigh rock genre releases in my collection).

mightyvinyl
I've begun adding this notation to the description of items I add to the database, and have modified a few promo releases already in the database to add this to the release notes.

i believe the way it was recommended to handle such situations is to enter it into the free text field, when the need to differentiate between a solid black and a translucent black/brown was called for, or mention in release notes when no solid black version existed.
anyone care to confirm my recollection on this? or does the info always go in the FTF?

mightyvinyl
Am I going to run into resistance or problems as a result?

likely. s are so easily riled up these days, and this was always a hot-button topic in the past.

mightyvinyl
perhaps just a simple "audiophile edition" or more descriptive would be "translucent virgin vinyl".

i think it's possibly a rumour that it is virgin vinyl though, i wouldnt make the assumption that it's an audiophile edition. it could just be the result of a different make up of PVC pellets being used to make the puck placed into the vinyl press, or the results of manufacturing moving from one state (a coloured or translucent or clear PVC) to another (solid black PVC) with the intermingling of these different materials resulting in the translucent black/brown vinyl. sometimes these do have marbling effects which may be due to such happenings.

for reference, check this infamous case study: Aztec Mystic, The - Knights Of The Jaguar EP

additional reading: http://discogs.librosgratis.biz/help/forums/topic/175973
http://discogs.librosgratis.biz/help/forums/topic/180331

one thing i have been doing when coming across such releases is adding pics of the record held to the light to help confirm that the variation/phenomenon exists. at the very least, it can maybe help add a piece to the larger puzzle that will provide a picture and maybe a clue as to what was happening in the mid/late 80's through the mid 90's to cause this phenomenon.

see the note and addendum on these releases --> Madonna - Human Nature

delete - double post

I think it is worth noting - an example is some of the Joy Division releases - often a dark red translucent vinyl and also on solid black - the translucent releases seem to make considerably more money.

Interesting that so many would vote for this as a "manufacturing variation" when the sheer volume and numbers of these - and the issues that feature them - would seem to statistically invalidate this notion?

For example, here are the list of translucent vinyl pressings I have in my personal collection (not listed on Discogs). Important thing to note is that the greatest number of these "anomalies" are found with A&M, Windham Hill, Mercury, Polygram, Vertigo, Riva, and Chrysalis releases, and a few high-end New Age labels, and are mostly promotional issues. Most of these companies were at one time under the Polygram tent. In many cases, the promo copy is translucent but a stock copy from the first issue is opaque black.

There are some anomalies of course - The Police LP "Synchronicity" for example. All the stock US and Canadian pressings of Synchronicity I've found are on translucent vinyl, usually purple or brown. But the record company issues of this are on opaque black.

I've also just discovered that all of the MCA Master Series, MCA Impulse! reissue, and Narada pressings that tout "custom pressed on KC 569 blend virgin vinyl" are all translucent brown or grey.

Cale, John Words For The Dying LP 1-26024 OPAL dj stamp on cover translucent brown

Didkorsky, Nick Now I Do This LP 1982 CRIVIS CONTROL translucent purple vinyl

Summers, Andy Mysterious Barricades LP 2039-1-P PRIVATE MUSIC translucent brown vinyl

Moffitt, Peter Zoe's Song LP 3020-1-NDJ NOVUS dj promo translucent vinyl - demo stamp on cover

Summer, Donna The Summer Collection - DJ PROMO LP 422-826 144-1 MERCURY DJ promo labels and stamp on back cover - translucent vinyl

Petra Back To The Street LP 7-102-07386-0 STAR SONG translucent grey vinyl

Lopez, Denise Don't You Wanna Be Mine 12PS 75021 7043 1 A&M translucent vinyl

Soundtrack Powaqqatsi - PHILIP GLASS LP 79192 ELEKTRA NONESUCH translucent brown vinyl

Ford, Lita Dancin' On The Edge LP 818 864-1 MERCURY translucent vinyl - small cover notch (promo)

Tears For Fears Mothers Talk - DJ PROMO12 884 638-1 MERCURY dj promo only labels - translucent vinyl

Tears For Fears Mothers Talk - DJ PROMO 12 884 638-1 MERCURY dj promo only labels - translucent vinyl

Humphrey, Bobbi No Way - 4 MIXES DJ PROMO 12 884 897-1 MERCURY gray/green translucent vinyl

Jazz Butcher Fishcotheque LP 88561-8223 RELATIVITY CREATION - translucent brown vinyl

Franklin, Aretha Freeway Of Love - PIC SLEEVE 12PS AD1-9355 ARISTA - translucent grey virgin vinyl

Franklin, Aretha Who's Zoomin' Who? - PIC SLEEVE 12PS AD1-9411 ARISTA - translucent virgin vinyl

Zappa, Frank Valley Girl - DJ PROMO LONG/SHORT 7 AE7 1490 BARKING PUMPKIN 3:47 / 4:58 promo only translucent purple vinyl

Robyn Hitchcock And The Egyptians Balloon Man - DJ PROMO - 7 AM-3023 A&M translucent brown vinyl promo

Soundtrack La Cage Aux Folles - The Broadway Musical LP HBC1-4824 - translucent brown vinyl

Black Eyed Peas Request Line Feat Macy Gray - DJ PROMO 12 INTR-10278 INTERSCOPE translucent aqua green promo

Hitchcock, Robyn I Something You / Zipper In My Spine / Man With Woman's Shadow - 7PS IPU 55 K RECORDS translucent brown vinyl

Hitchcock, Robyn I Something You / Zipper In My Spine / Man With Woman's Shadow - 7PS IPU 55 K RECORDS translucent brown vinyl

Lanz, David Solstice LP N-61008 NARADA - translucent brown KC 569 virgin vinyl

Mellencamp, John Crumblin' Down - PIC SLEEVE 12PS PRO 235-1 RIVA promo only - translucent brown vinyl

Rainbow Stranded - DJ PROMO 12 PRO 242-1 MERCURY dj promo same both sides translucent purple vinyl

Spoons Bridges Over Borders - DJ PROMO 12 PRO 490-1 MERCURY - Dance Mix 6:47 / Dub 5:19 - translucent aqua green vinyl

Spoons Bridges Over Borders - DJ PROMO 12 PRO 490-1 MERCURY - Dance Mix 6:47 / Dub 5:19 - translucent brown vinyl

Spoons Rodeo - DJ PROMO 12 PRO 498-1 MERCURY DJ only - translucent aqua green vinyl

Vela, Rosie Zazu LP SP 6-5016 A&M translucent brown vinyl

Vela, Rosie Zazu LP SP 6-5016 A&M translucent brown vinyl

Jankel, Chas No. 1 - 12PS SP-12121 A&M translucent vinyl

Bailey, Philip Thank You Extended Version - DJ PROMO 12PS SP-12205
HORIZON translucent grey vinyl - dj promo labels and stamp on back cover -

Police Synchronictiy LP SP-3735 A&M inner/translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity LP SP-3735 A&M translucent brown vinyl
Police Synchonicity - CANADA LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity - CANADA LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity - CANADA LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl
Police Synchronicity LP SP-3735 A&M translucent purple vinyl

Balin, Marty Balin - Top Tracks - Special Quality Pressing DJ Promo Only 12PS SPRO-9672 EMI promo translucent red vinyl DJ only

Planxty The Woman I Loved So Well - UK LP UK TARA 3005 TARA RECORDS translucent brown vinyl

Jellybean Jellybean Rocks The House! 2LP V2X 41652 CHRYSALIS gatefold dj only promo labels - translucent vinyl

O'Connor With M.C. Lyte, Sinead I Want Your Hands On Me / Just Call Me Joe - DJ PROMO 12 VAS 1063 ENSIGN VIRGIN promo only - translucent vinyl

Art Of Noise Dragnet - DJ PROMO 7PS VS4 43134 CHINA CHRYSALIS dj promo translucent vinyl

Orchestral Manoeuvres In The Dark Souvenir / Motion And Heart - CANADA 10PS VSX 1140 VERTIGO translucent green vinyl

Rubaja And Hernandez High Plateaux - CANADA LP WH 91064 WINDHAM HILL translucent brown vinyl

Hedges, Michael Live On The Double Planet - CANADA LP WH 91066 WINDHAM HILL first pressing translucent brown vinyl

McFerrin, Bobby Elephant's Child - NARRATION BY JACK NICHOLSON LP WH-0701 WINDHAM HILL translucent brown vinyl

Hedges, Michael Breakfast In The Field LP WH-1017 WINDHAM HILL translucent grey vinyl

Hedges, Michael Aerial Boundaries LP WH-1032 WINDHAM HILL translucent brown vinyl - first issue no barcode

Manring, Michael Unusual Weather LP WH-1044 WINDHAM HILL translucent green vinyl

Hedges, Michael Live On The Double Planet LP WH-1066 WINDHAM HILL -translucent brown vinyl

Simon, Fred Usually/Always LP WH-1071 WINDHAM HILL translucent vinyl

Hedges, Michael Breakfast In The Field LP WHS-C-1017 WINDHAM HILL translucent vinyl

Zappa, Frank Valley Girl / You Are What You Is - PIC SLEEVE 7PS WS9-02972 Barking Pumpkin - WOFC - translucent purple vinyl

Zappa, Frank Valley Girl / You Are What You Is - PIC SLEEVE 7PS WS9-02972 Barking Pumpkin on translucent purple vinyl

Zappa, Frank Valley Girl / You Are What You Is - PIC SLEEVE 7PS WS9-02972 Barking Pumpkin on translucent purple vinyl

Although anecdotal, I found the following conversation on another vinyl obsessive forum (AudioKarma.org). It reminded me that WEA in the late 70's and early 80's started touting "Quiex II" pressings on a lot of their promo releases. I just ran out and grabbed a few examples from my inventory to compare:

2 Quiex II promo pressings of Peter Gabriel "Security" - both translucent brown
2 Geffen 1st issue stock copies of same - both opaque black

1 Quiex II promo press of Donna Summer GHS-2005 - translucent brown
2 Geffen 1st pressing stock issues - both opaque black

Here's what I found on the other forum I mentioned:
"....but so far my most exciting find is The Police Synchronicity with MASTERDISK RL in the dead wax. From what I am reading that is very good. I'm excited to play it tomorrow! Note: I just held it up to a fluorescent light to check my cleaning job and the vinyl glows purple? Very strange - none of my other LP's do that!"

"That's because the disc was pressed with a virgin vinyl formulation known as 'Quiex II.' It's translucent and will have a (brown or) purplish glow if you put it up to a strong light. A lot of '80's records from A&M, Polygram, WEA and other labels pressed with it, particularly on white label/radio station promos. Some are marked as such, a lot aren't, like your Police LP. It should sound great. Good score!! :thmbsp:"

PabloPlato
fascinating, i often find 12"s on small independent dance labels pressed on such vinyl, can't recall an instance of a major label doing such

I have a Polygram pressing from 1989 pressed on translucent brown vinyl (black).

Double-subbed - apologies

mightyvinyl
Interesting that so many would vote for this as a "manufacturing variation" when the sheer volume and numbers of these - and the issues that feature them - would seem to statistically invalidate this notion?

In the items you list under the above quote, you have included COLORED vinyl.

mightyvinyl
Zappa, Frank Valley Girl / You Are What You Is - PIC SLEEVE 7PS WS9-02972 Barking Pumpkin on translucent purple vinyl

mightyvinyl

Manring, Michael Unusual Weather LP WH-1044 WINDHAM HILL translucent green vinyl

Etcetera
The subject here is the 'muddy black stuff' of the biscuit used for your bog-standard 'black' vinyl pressing.
That this may, or may not, be critical equates as much with whether a disc is styrene or vinyl. Best ignore leery semi-black, slightly-milky or translucent-when-you-hold-it-up-to-strong-light black...

Here's one of my translucent reds http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-1961815-1296014612.jpeg
A translucent yellow of it http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-4398557-1363824961-3990.jpeg
and a black version http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-1690866-1264830585.jpeg
which is much 'blacker' than this one I have http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-1960497-1295448329.jpeg

Edit; By "ignore" I mean you might wish to ramble on about the quality of the vinyl / coloration in Notes, but IMHO it isn't the stuff of FTFs.
Lay it on a newspaper & if you can read the text through the 'black' disc, then maybe it's worth a mention ;)

Translucent vinyl has been discussed many times and it has been decided to regard them as manufacturing variations as long as it cannot be proven that the vinyl was pressed that way intentionally, i.e. it was ordered that way. IMO, that's a good choice. I'm not sure that a new format, e.g. Opaque or Translucent would be any good. I own so many early Chicago House records that were pressed on the thinnest of vinyl imaginable so a translucency is inherent. The sheer amount of records mentioned above make me think that the plants were just squeezing out the last penny to work more cost efficient. WRT. to Joy Division, I only know of one example that has allowed a separated translucent edition because it was known that there was a second pressing run ordered by Martin Hannett and these two editions aren't really distinguishable otherwise. Most of the Factory US pressings were translucent anyway. Another thing is the colour definition. It depends on the light source and so a red can appear brown or purple or whatever, as I have experienced myself on several occcasions. So, the whole aspect has more to consider before this can become a new tag.

I have quite a few 7"es (all from the US and from the early 90's) that are actually kind of transparent brown vinyl when held against the light. I do think it's just a certain type of resin that was used. This type of vinyl was quite prominent back then, remarkably only in the US it seems. It wasn't a certain vinyl color, just a certain type of black vinyl resin that as used, likely with less carbon added which would result in a transparent dark brown.
http://img703.imageshack.us/i/dsc01790u.jpg
http://img859.imageshack.us/i/dsc01792.jpg

I have never agreed with lumping them, or dismissing it as a variation, and have always wished they would be recognized at least for what they are (not opaque), regardless of what we know about intentions and so forth.

I for one as a collector would choose a translucent copy, if that makes any difference, but I don't hope for difference here, as there has always been stark opposition from some.

They are recognised for what they are, a manufacturing variation and not an intended one.

mightyvinyl
"That's because the disc was pressed with a virgin vinyl formulation known as 'Quiex II.' It's translucent and will have a (brown or) purplish glow if you put it up to a strong light. A lot of '80's records from A&M, Polygram, WEA and other labels pressed with it, particularly on white label/radio station promos. Some are marked as such, a lot aren't, like your Police LP. It should sound great. Good score!! :thmbsp:"

Thank you for that amazing quote. In a perfect world it should weigh as notably significant ...

mightyvinyl
here are the list of translucent vinyl pressings I have in my personal collection

links would be more helpful than a long rambling list.

mightyvinyl
"That's because the disc was pressed with a virgin vinyl formulation known as 'Quiex II.' It's translucent and will have a (brown or) purplish glow if you put it up to a strong light. A lot of '80's records from A&M, Polygram, WEA and other labels pressed with it, particularly on white label/radio station promos. Some are marked as such, a lot aren't, like your Police LP. It should sound great. Good score!! :thmbsp:"

links to the releases marked as Quiex II please - they will help in building up a case for creating separate release pages for translucent black or FTF usage in those cases.

http://discogs.librosgratis.biz/help/forums/topic/281061#2990606

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/share-your-records-pressed-on-secret-quiex-type-vinyl-not-colored-clear-vinyl.285211/page-4

"Here is a list of USA labels that issued vinyl pressed with the Quiex translucent vinyl. The Quiex era in the USA started in 1981 and ended in 1991. The majority pressed by the major labels were for promotional use. The list is certainly not complete as I do not have U.S. Quiex pressings of recordings that were pressed with this vinyl in Canada.
Japanese pressings started (I believe) in 1976. Here in Canada a few of the major labels used Quiex or another translucent vinyl. I have only found one Canadian Columbia (a Canadian artist) LP pressed on Quiex vinyl was pressed by Cinram but mastered by Columbia Records Canada. The best known Canadian releases, the A & M audiophile series were pressed in Japan by JVC and issued in Canadian printed jackets and U2's "Rattle & Hum". I think just one of the audiophile half speeds series was pressed in Canada.
Teldec vinyl was often translucent as well.
Many of the first wave of audiophile labels used translucent vinyl but are not in the list below.
This list is not complete or definitive! Happy hunting!
A & M, Angel, Antilles, Antone's, Arista, Artful Balance, Ascent, Asylum, Atlantic, Audiophon, Backstreet, Big Life, Blackhawk, Blue Note, Capitol, Cargo, Chesky, Chrysalis, Compleat, Concord, Concord Jazz, Concord Picante, Contemporary, Crossover, Crusaders, Cypress, Dark Horse, Discovery, ECM (Warner Bro.), E.G., Elektra, Elektra Musician, EMI, Emarcy, Enigma, Ensign, Fantasy, Fine Arts, Flying Fish, Folkways, Geffen, George Wein, Gold Castle, Grammaphone, Grammavision, Grunt, Heartbeat, Horizon, I.R.S., IPI, Island, Jam, Jive, Magenta, MCA, Mercury, Novus, Opal, Open Air, Pablo, Paisley Park, port, Pathfinder, Pausa, Philips, Philo, Planet, Polydor, Private Music, Qwest, RCA, Relativity, Reprise, Rhino, Rooster, Rough Trade, Rounder, Ryko, San Francisco, Silvertone, Sire, Spindletop, Stash, Stony Plain, TBS, Uni, Unistar, Varese Sarabande, Varrick, Verve, Virgin (A & M), Warner Brothers, Watt, Westwood One, Windham Hill."

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/share-your-records-pressed-on-secret-quiex-type-vinyl-not-colored-clear-vinyl.285211/page-4

"Virtually all stock A&M albums on vinyl for US distribution from about 1983 on are pressed on the dark translucent Quiex II vinyl. A&M made the conscious decision to switch to that type of vinyl after doing a run of Audiophile pressings. Another classy move for the label.

So some in my collection are:

Herb Alpert BLOW YOUR OWN HORN
Herb Alpert BULLISH
Herb Alpert KEEP YOUR EYE ON ME

Carpenters VOICE OF THE HEART
Carpenters AN OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS
Carpenters YESTERDAY ONCE MORE
Carpenters LOVELINES
Richard Carpenter TIME

Sergio Mendes CONFETTI
Sergio Mendes BRASIL '86

Curiously, some A&Ms from this period for the Latin market are not translucent at all but solid black. Examples are Herb Alpert's NOCHE DE AMOR, the Latin semi-equivalent of BLOW YOUR OWN HORN, and BRAVIA, the Latin equivalent of BULLISH.

I have a Sergio Mendes CONFETTI from Canada that's solid black.

And the boss' wife Lani Hall only seemed to get her Latin ES FACIL AMAR on translucent, while her standard US COLLECTIBLES seems to be on solid black vinyl.

And just as curious are that some 12" singles from the period are translucent, others are solid black.

So it's not a hard and fast rule, but you'll find many '83 and beyond A&M's to be on great vinyl."

I think I'm done with this topic for now. It's widely acknowledged in the dealer community that the A&M/Windham Hill etc. pressings in the 80's on translucent vinyl were done consciously as a quality feature by the label. It's also widely acknowledged that the Quiex II "limited edition" promo pressings from WEA at that same time - ALL of which are found to be translucent - along with the Polygram/Mercury/Vertigo/Riva etc promo pressings were an intentional quality production process, and not a manufacturing anomaly.

The evidence - especially as seen by dealers who have actually handled large amounts of vinyl from this period - is overwhelming that the translucent vinyl from these major labels was an intentional and not a random occurrence.

As far as I can discern, the disagreement here comes primarily from collectors who perhaps have limited experience with the pressings from this era, and the agreement comes primarily from dealers who have been looking at these pressings for a couple of decades now and handling large quantities of these through their inventory.

It's a bit frustrating as this feels like I'm arguing that the earth is round and revolves around the sun! :)

Hopefully someday it will be acknowledged as such on here; meanwhile, I'll continue to watch these pressings sell for a through other sites where it's acknowledged that these are vinyl pressings and not random factory misspressings.

My example was definitely not a "" pressing but the only pressing there is of that particular record (and all the other releases from that label from that time), so there is that special resin you talk about and a similar one in of translucency that has been used as standard for some time (all early 7"es on Relapse are like this, until 1994). There is nothing wrong with documenting this in the release notes. If it is proven that this was a special audiophile pressing, it would also warrant a separate submission, technically that has nothing to do with the vinyl color, just the fact that it's a different version of a release. It's not like we're talking about a random number of records from a pressing that happened to look like that. These pressings will most likely be identical in of appearance for the whole run.

Yes, exactly. Thanks Boogie!

This is an interesting topic. I've also noticed some of these translucent-on-bright-light records and my searching online brought me to discussions of "Quiex" or "Quiex II" vinyl too. But I'd caution against using this term for all murky vinyl. At least one of the dark red, nearly black records I own is on the PabloPlato's suggestion of getting images of the record with a strong light behind it.

I ran into this as well. I recently ordered from one of the few websites still advertising "newly pressed" re-issues. I ordered one that did not mention anything about it being colored or translucent vinyl.

If I had not been walking with the record towards my front door with the light shining through and subsequently through the 45, I would never have noticed it was really not black but purple.

You had to shine it in light to see the translucent purple color.

When I documented it on Discogs, I just added that it was translucent purple, which it
indeed was.

Synchronicity, while not on Quiex brand vinyl, was definitely pressed on audiophile vinyl intentionally as a selling point. The sticker on the shrink wrap says "This Record is Pressed With KC-600 Audiophile Vinyl" along with the usual "includes the songs..." listing.

webkrawler
You had to shine it in light to see the translucent purple color.

It's funny, I've just been going back through the forum to see what all has been said on the topic of this dark almost-black translucent vinyl. There seems to be a big misconception that this requires a zillion-watt halogen arc lamp to see. Hardly accurate at all. These discs are all verifiable by being looked through on a sunny day. You don't have to look at the sun through it. Just the general light-level of a normal sunny day (~120 watts) shines through plainly.

More to the point, I normally find these simply by seeing how the light reflects off of them. Every once in a while when looking through records I'll do a double take: "Is this disc actually green? No, I must be crazy. It's black of course." And I've learned that when I have that experience I should always check it against the daylight. It's almost always a super-dark translucent copy.

Just hold them up to the window. I have a Donna Summer 7" that looks purple when held up to the light.

So we hold our records to strong light now, instead of playing them ?
I hope no one is watching :)