Just out of curiosity am I completely wrong with my definition ?
IMHO the tag is fitting as it's not an Album per definition but a collection of outtakes, sessions, b-sides, etc.
So per RSG §6.16.2. I doubt this would be in any other category better placed than in compilations as it is "an otherwise themed gathering of tracks" > a collection of non-album tracks from 81 to 85.
Have the tracks on this release been issued before?
If they have then this qualifies as a "Comp", if not I would not tag it. The system will place it under albums because of the amount of contents.
Well, not all of them but that's not really the only criteria to count - "...usually taken from a variety of previously issued sources." does take of all the best of, greatest hits packages but also leaves space for Compilations with content which iwas not or partly not (as here) released before.
Especially on not released before content here's a fine example; Various - Lonely Is An Eyesore.
No one disagrees seriously this is a Compilation, even if all tracks where (with one exception) exclusives when it was released.
Out of 15 tracks in this release, only 4 (tracks 3, 7, 9 and 13) had been previously released at the time (see below for a proposed change regarding the note on track 10).
That leaves 11 unreleased tracks.
In that respect, it is not really different from (to stay in Waterboys territory) Too Close To Heaven: The Unreleased Fisherman's Blues Sessions, which consist of unreleased tracks from previous recording sessions and are not tagged as compilations.
Maybe the issue here is if it would be possible to translate into the database the difference we can make between “regular” albums, “unreleased tracks” releases, and “Greatest hits”/"usually taken from a variety of previously issued sources". Dream Harder, nor is it, I think, a compilation in the current guidelines sense of the word. It is another kind of release.
PS : I had a look at my copy of this cd and I think the release notes should be changed regarding track 10, as the version of "Somebody might wave back" is not the full band version included on A Girl Called Johnny but a "solo demo" which only credits Mike Scott (Vocals, Guitar) in the sleeve notes.
fishslappingdance
Out of 15 tracks in this release, only 4 (tracks 3, 7, 9 and 13) had been previously released at the time
From a fan perspective I would call this release an album, but from a discogs perspective is neither an album or compilation. I would not add a tag at all. Like I said the system will place this release under "albums" since it contains more than 45 mins of audio (i think that's what a full length release is considered here)
fishslappingdance
Maybe the issue here is if it would be possible to translate into the database the difference we can make between “regular” albums, “unreleased tracks” releases, and “Greatest hits”/"usually taken from a variety of previously issued sources".
The Secret Life Of The Waterboys 81-85 is not really the follow-up album to Dream Harder, nor is it, I think, a compilation in the current guidelines sense of the word. It is another kind of release.
Well, even if it's not a "Greatest Hits" release but an "otherwise themed gathering of tracks from a given timeframe" I think it would be better placed among the Compilations then in the Album section.
The Question here is not what would be the perfect sorting but what would be the best of the two given options.
As both other versions in this MR are tagged Compilation there should be found a consens as it makes no sense at all if one with this tag is voted correct and the next receives an Entirely Incorrect vote for adding it.........
I agree that the three releases should have the same tag, but with the current guidelines, I think the way to go would be to remove the compilation tags from the other two releases in this MR (even if I'm not totally satisfied with the album tag or "default sorting" as an album as well).
Having said that, as there are a lot of "previously unreleased tracks releases" tagged as compilations in the database, (such as In A Special Place), there is maybe a broader discussion (than on this particular case) to have on this question.
Yes, that's absolutely the point because this is not the first time and won't be the last if there's such a broad interpretation between correct & EI possible.
My proposal would be to distinguish beetween releases covering only a short period of time i.e. outtakes of a specific Album and Collections spanning a longer period of time.
in the Compilation section these would fall; Eyeless In Gaza - Orange Ice & Wax Crayons which spans a Period where EIG released various Albums
another example would be New Order - Peel Sessions is a borderline case as it collects two different Peel Sessions but actually there was only one regular Album released in that period.
This leads to the following addition:
Every collection of Radio sessions should be considered to be a Compilation anyway as those where different recordings made for a different event (airing) which is not really far away from a different release.
slur
My proposal would be to distinguish beetween releases covering only a short period of time i.e. outtakes of a specific Album and Collections spanning a longer period of time.
.
I think this is still too subjective and open to interpretation. What is a "short period of time" ? If sleeve notes are to be believed, Too Close To Heaven: The Unreleased Fisherman's Blues Sessions spans a period of five years (1986 to 1991) and even has the added twist of including tracks recorded after "Fisherman's Blues" release date (so they can't be all outtakes in the accepted sense of the word)
slur
in the Compilation section these would fall;
Eyeless In Gaza - Orange Ice & Wax Crayons which spans a Period where EIG released various Albums
another example would be Siouxsie And The Banshees* - Downside Up.
I think there is a big difference between these two releases. Siouxsie And The Banshees* - Downside Up seems to be the opposite (the release notes states : "B-Sides & Rarities Box Set, 55 tracks on 4 CDS All digitally remastered, 34 tracks on CD for the first time!")
This difference could in fact lead to a more objective distinction, in accordance with the current guidelines, based on the previous availability of the tracks :
- If a release includes exclusively (or mostly ?) previously released tracks (while not falling into the categories excluded by RSG §6.16.6), it is a compilation.
- If the tracks are exclusively (or mostly ?) previously unreleased, it is not.
In that case, radio sessions, if previously unreleased, shouldn't use the compilation tag either.
el_duro
FWIW, other discographies, collectors, sources... using the compilation / compilation album tag for The Secret Life Of The Waterboys 81-85:
I'm pretty sure I used the term "compilation" in relation to this release more often than not, but the way I understand the guidelines on this particular subject makes me think the tag shouldn't in fact be used here.
fishslappingdance
Out of 15 tracks in this release, only 4 (tracks 3, 7, 9 and 13) had been previously released at the time (see below for a proposed change regarding the note on track 10).
That leaves 11 unreleased tracks.
That's a compilation for me (if the remaining 11 tracks were compiled/rescued from different recording sessions/sources and not specifically recorded for this very release).
Ultimate example of what I consider "tracks compiled/rescued from recording sessions/sources and not specifically recorded for this very release" to be a compilation, even if they were previously unreleased:
fishslappingdance
I agree that the three releases should have the same tag, but with the current guidelines, I think the way to go would be to remove the compilation tags from the other two releases
I agree. The Guidelines talk about what is commonly referred to as a compilation. A greatest hits collection, yes. A collection of singles gathered together, sure. Mainly new material, not to me, no.
fishslappingdance
I think there is a big difference between these two releases. Eyeless In Gaza - Orange Ice & Wax Crayons consists exclusively of previously unreleased songs whereas Siouxsie And The Banshees* - Downside Up seems to be the opposite (the release notes states : "B-Sides & Rarities Box Set, 55 tracks on 4 CDS All digitally remastered, 34 tracks on CD for the first time!")
Both compile tracks from different sources over a length of time, therefore I would consider both as Compilations.
fishslappingdance
I think this is still too subjective and open to interpretation. What is a "short period of time" ?
fishslappingdance
- If the tracks are exclusively (or mostly ?) previously unreleased, it is not.
This would not work as there are too many label / thematic / Compilations marketed as such with exclusive recordings. So the distinction released / not released before is not really useful as main criteria in my eyes.
I think the main question is here is the Compilation only a Singles Compilation a la Greatest Hits or can it be used for different shades of compiled tracks ?
timetogo
gilldI agree that the three releases should have the same tag, but with the current guidelines, I think the way to go would be to remove the compilation tags from the other two releases
I agree. The Guidelines talk about what is commonly referred to as a compilation. A greatest hits collection, yes. A collection of singles gathered together, sure. Mainly new material, not to me, no.
Then we should begin to edit all Beatles Anthology releases in Discogs.
I supposed so. And if it was then decided that the "compilation" tag was OK, I don't see why we should act differently in similar cases such as this one.
Regardless of my personal understanding of these specific guidelines detailed in my previous posts, it seems that as soon as we stray from the "best of/singles collection" or the "two or more previously available releases packaged together" types of submissions, similar releases have often been treated differently as far as the compilation tag is concerned. Here are a few examples :
There is neither consensus nor clarity on this issue. Is Led Zeppelin - Coda a compilation? It's widely regarded as an album, not a compilation, but, really, is it different than the ones people here insist are compilations? Not really.
Is it that big of a deal to tag albums or compilations as such? The system is very inconsistent anyways.
Anything considered "Full length" in contents (including Singles and Samplers that are not tagged) will end up under "Albums".
I personally would like "Albums" and "Compilations" to go under one category - "Full-length Releases".
And bundled up releases like previously-issued album packs often labeled "compilations" with no new material at all, should go under a new category - "Box Sets", because like the tag implies, they are just "boxed" items.
You said that; you didn't succeed. If you agree then you should require for a consensus on the whole "compilation" question. But keeping on fighting this "war" separately with every single release (no matter what happened in previous battles) is futile, tiring and ultimately unfair (and this applies to several recurring discussions here in Discogs).
PS: the EI vote that caused this thread to be opened was abusive (that's what I mean by "unfair").
I actually started a request to get an official decision where the fine line of using this Tag ended with the advice to take it to the forums.
All I see now are various possibilities how to define a Compilation and how to outline the current Guidelines and it's not solved when it comes to a disagreement of the understanding.
I also agree wholeheartly that it's tiring to discuss the same questions again and again - I even stumbled on a thread and a submission where I discussed this same matter on a different release with the very same voter (among others) way back.
For any serious database I think it's a debacle to o.k. one entry as Compilation, one get voted EI and a third just unreviewed.
If we can only agree on one point (the factual format CD) and can't come up with more proper definitions I think it's a pretty lame picture for us Voters / s of discogs compared to all the other sites as listed by el_duro above (thanks).
Please do not use the compilation tag on releases containing previously unreleased tracks (or mostly previously unreleased tracks) that are not called compilations by an official source.
Does this mean that we could move back the Anthology releases by The Beatles to the 'albums and other full length releases', as they are called albums on The Beatles official website: http://www.thebeatles.com/album/beatles-anthology-1
?
Internaut
they are called albums on The Beatles official website
Even 1967-1970 – which is an undisputed compilation – is called "album" on that web site. I'm taking the term "album" with a big, big grain of salt here.
loukash
The issue I see here is that their use of the term "album" is very technical, as in:
"A collection of tracks intended to be sold as a whole"
The 'album' word is irrelevant. I'm talking about removing the _compilation_ tag due to the fact that the guidelines are now updated:
nik
Please do not use the compilation tag on releases containing previously unreleased tracks (or mostly previously unreleased tracks) that are not called compilations by an official source.
loukash
From what I , one of the main points was that "Anthology" is virtually a synonym for "Compilation".
I'd disagree with that one rather strongly.
nik
Please do not use the compilation tag on releases containing previously unreleased tracks (or mostly previously unreleased tracks) that are not called compilations by an official source.
timetogo
That's a very positive change. Thank you.
Even if the outcome of the discussion is quite poor imho that's at least a decision is fallen which helps to avoid further complications.
The next logical step now would be a simple renaming of the Albums section into "Albums & Full length" releases.
Fromt the viewpoint of an I'd like to see a clear list of Studio Albums if I start investigating an Artist but that might be just my POV.
Another possibility would have been therefore to clear the Album section of those undefined full length's incl. likewise Collections as above mentioned and rename the Compilations section into "Compilations and other Collections".
More urgently might be to consider a new way of using the MR for Tour Documentations if they shall stay in the Albums "& other full length releases" section - or even inventing a Live Tag and pull them into a seperate category to purge the omnious cloud of full length's which is currently named 'Albums'.
A 'Live' Tag would be pretty factual and the only open question I see there is how to proceed with Live Singles & EP's then.
